And Bill nodded. And Bill smiled. And Bill waited –
So you became a manager, said the interviewer. And you started in some fairly far-flung places: Workington, Grimsby, Carlisle. What did you learn in those far-flung places that worked for you when you finally got to Anfield?
Yes, I started in the outposts. Carlisle. And Grimsby. And Workington. And Huddersfield. Hard places. But good places to be. I enjoyed myself. Yeah …
But what do you learn in a small club which then served you well, when you got to Liverpool?
Well, you learn you’ve got to work with very little money. This is detrimental, of course. But it’s like being brought up in Glenbuck. A hard village, you know? That’s a hard life. So being at Carlisle to manage. Being at Workington to manage, which is an outpost. I mean, that’s hard work. So I think it’s really a good thing to have been there.
You see, to my mind, all the really good managers I’ve met –
people like Jock Stein, for example, yourself …
Bill nodded. And Bill said, Yes.
The thing which separates them from all the other managers is not only this drive, but a kind of honesty. That you’re looking after the club, that football counts …
Yes.
Well, I’m not putting this very well. But I suppose what I am trying to say is, there really is something which separates really good managers from the average managers. Now what is it? There’s a marvellous story about Jock Stein. Celtic were playing away at Dundee United. And the match was called off at the last minute …
Bill nodded again. And Bill said, Yes.
And he drove out to Cumbernauld, on a Saturday, and stopped all the supporters’ buses going to Dundee United. So that is what a good manager is about, isn’t it?
Bill nodded. And Bill said, Now that is something. His first thoughts were for the people who pay. He’s right. That was a wonderful thing to do.
Yes. Now going back, over all the years at Liverpool. They say the hardest thing in football is to have one good side, break it up, and create another one. You managed that pretty successfully?
Yeah …
But when you look back, were your affections for the first side really, more than the second?
Yeah, well, they were a great team. And I think that possibly there was very few teams in Britain would have beaten them. Over the last thirty years. To break it up – that was Ian St John, and Ron Yeats, and Peter Thompson, and Roger Hunt. Tommy Smith and Callaghan are still playing, of course – so to break it up was difficult. Because the one thing that surprised me was that I had vouched that I thought they would go on for another three years. Now they didn’t. So they finished three years earlier than I thought they would do. So then my plans weren’t working then. I was in the Third Divisions and Fourth Divisions, looking for players, like the Clemences. And Alec Lindsay and Larry Lloyd. And Keegan and them. But I went early to the Third and Fourth Divisions. I couldn’t go and pay a hundred and fifty thousand pounds for a player and put him in the reserves. So I had to
go to the lower leagues. And pick young boys. Eighteen, Clemence was, when I signed him.
What really comes across, when you were building that first Liverpool side, the great side, was that you were absolutely certain that you needed two players. And those two players were Ron Yeats and Ian St John. What was it made you so sure those were the two players that you needed to turn what was an ordinary side into a great one?
Some players are signed on with no doubt at all. No danger. Other ones, well, I hadn’t seen enough of them to be sure of them. So there’s always a risk and a gamble buying a player. Some of them I bought, there was no risk at all. In fact, it was stealing. Stealing!
What about Yeats, for example? Start with him …
Bill smiled again. And Bill said, Oh, Yeats was a colossus. Dear me. One of the biggest men in the game. Defended his box. He was one of the quickest men in the game. And possibly, over seventy, eighty yards, there were nobody in Britain could have lived with him. So he was a powerful man with a big heart. And a big frame. And St John and Yeats were the beginning …
And what has St John got? Because those were more sophisticated skills …
Oh, St John was strong. He was small but punchy and strong. And crafty and cunning. And a needle. He’d put his foot in, if he needed to put his foot in.
You mean, he’d kick his own grandmother?
Oh yes. Well, they’re the kind I want. Yes. You don’t want fellas that are yes, sir, no, sir, three bags full. They don’t do me. I want men to be men. But to take it. If someone else is going to kick them, not to complain. So that it’s a man’s game.
Just go back to the psychology. Because that extended to referees with you, didn’t it? You always had a fair old way of making your points to referees, didn’t you?
Oh well, it’s a difficult job, referees. It’s a hard job. I mean, we tried to help them as much as we could. And in the end, of course, my idea of referees, for the players’ point of view, was don’t dissent. They give decisions against you. It’s no good arguing. You’ll only hurt yourself. You’ll upset your system. You’ll not be normal, if you’re incensed. I said, So forget them. Take it. And if I drummed it into
them long enough, then it would get to the point whereby they would take all the decisions and it wouldn’t upset them. So I said, If he gives a free kick against you, you’re all arguing the toss outside the box, and then you might even lose a goal because of this. I said, Now they may have given the decision against you. I said, But I’ll tell you one thing. I’ve never seen a referee scoring a goal yet. They are all complaining about the referee giving a bad decision. I said, He didn’t put the bloody ball in the net, did he? You see? So that was my psychology.
The interviewer laughed.
And Bill smiled.
And then tell us about the Kop, said the interviewer. Was it there before you came?
Oh yes.
The singing and everything else?
Yes, the noise was there. Yeah. Not the singing. The singing came later. The singing came along with the Beatles. And your Gerry Marsden’s
You’ll Never Walk Alone.
And
Ee-Aye-Addio.
That all came around the time we were beginning to move in sixty-four, sixty-five. And we win the Cup for the first time …
Is it worth a goal start? Or two-goal start? Because I mean, it must have been an intimidating place for other teams, Anfield?
No, they make a noise. But they are very fair. If you come here and play the game. Play football. They’ll applaud you. If you come here with other intentions, it’s a different story. They can be hard and all. But they are very fair. And they’re very noisy, of course. There’s a big band of them. And I would think that they are possibly the funniest crowd, you know? The humour of them. I mean, they can pick up things right away. I mean, I remember Leeds United coming here. And Sprake, in goal, was going to roll a ball out, you see? So he changed his mind, so he threw it into the net, you see? And inside of two minutes, they were singing
Careless Hands
. It’s unbelievable. Bloody unbelievable. Yeah. That happened. That’s absolutely true. Yeah …
Why did they make you almost into a god? Because I mean, you were their man, weren’t you?
Well, we were successful. And we’d won the Cup for the first time. I think that was a big thing, you know? That made them proud. I mean, the fact that they hadn’t won it. And they were speaking about
hiding, you know? Kind of hiding with big coats on, so nobody would see them. That was one of the things, I think. Having won the Cup, and being successful, and going into Europe. And I was a people’s man, you understand? I’m a socialist.
Still?
Bill nodded. Bill nodded again. And Bill said, Yes, yes. But that doesn’t say that I’ve got very much time for politicians. Including socialist politicians. They’ve a difficult job. But I mean, they make a terrible mess of it. So that really and truly a man is his own politics. Your politics, you are born with. And so was I born with mine.
That’s shades of Rabbie Burns in that …
Yes. Exactly. Yes. Burns was a clever man. When he wrote
To a Mouse
, he was in the field, with his brother Gilbert. Ploughing. And he said to Gilbert, I need to go home. And when he went home, and Gilbert come home at night, he had written
To a Mouse
. The whole lot.
Yeah, said the interviewer. Smashing …
And Bill said, Yep.
Why, asked the interviewer, just lastly, Bill, in the book, there’s this bit, which has attracted all the attention, where you say you are not welcome at Liverpool …
Yeah.
I mean, surely that isn’t true?
Bill swallowed. And Bill said, I’ve written a book about people. Praising people. Talking about people. Ninety-nine per cent talking and praising people. One per cent a little bit of criticism. And people pick out the one per cent. And if anybody is annoyed at me saying that, then that appals me. Because it’s a fact. It’s fair comment. And if anybody writes a book. About sport or anything. And it’s ninety-nine per cent OK. Surely the one per cent is nothing, is it? You wouldn’t win an election if you only got one per cent …
No, said the interviewer. But you see, what did strike me as odd in the book, you say that you went to Bruges with Liverpool …
Yeah.
After you stopped being manager …
Yeah.
And they wouldn’t let you stay in the same hotel. Now that
seems awful to me. That the club would say, Go to another hotel. We don’t want you …
Well, I went at the invitation of Radio City. And they must have got permission from the club for me to go on the plane. But I was in a different hotel, yeah. Oh yes.
Well, I would have thought Bill Shankly could walk into Anfield every day of the week, all the time, for what you have done?
Bill nodded. And Bill said, Oh, I could. For the home games, yeah. I could, yeah. But not the away games. I mean, I used to get tickets from Burnley. For the game at Burnley. I mean, maybe when I went to the home game, they might have said, Do you want a couple of tickets for the game next week? But no. No. It’s mentioned a bit because it happened to me. You understand?
Yeah.
It happened to me.
Yes.
My life was spent there. Fighting to get them somewhere –
Bill stopped speaking. Bill stopped talking. And Bill looked away again. No cars passing, no dogs barking. Nothing. Nothing but silence. In the sunshine and in the street. Just the silence.
Would you like to go back?
No.
Into management?
Bill shook his head. And Bill said, No, no. I’d like to have some involvement. About games. And to help people.
Two last questions, I suppose: would you go through it all again? And is the football now as good as when you started kicking the ball around in Ayrshire?
Oh, I wouldn’t like to go through the whole thing again. But having gone through it, I would like to be involved in some way. Because I think that I can do the game a lot of good. I mean, my psychology. My knowledge of the game. My knowledge of people. And I think it would be a terrible pity for that to be wasted …
And is the game today –
Because I’m still as lucid as I was. Yeah, yeah …
That’s great, said the interviewer. Thank you, Bill. Thank you very much. That was great, Bill.
Bill nodded. Bill stuck out his hand. And Bill said, OK, then. If you’re sure you’ve got everything you need …
More than enough, said the interviewer. More than enough. But thank you again, Bill. Thank you.
Bill smiled. And Bill said, Well, if you want a cup of tea. And a biscuit. Before you head back …
No, no, said the interviewer. We best get back. We best get off. But thank you, Bill. Thank you again. And to your wife, too.
Bill nodded again. And Bill shook hands with the interviewer. And with the cameraman and the sound man. And Bill said, Well, you boys have a safe journey back now …
Thank you, Bill.
In the sunshine. In the street. With cars passing and with dogs barking. Bill walked back to his gate. Bill walked back up the drive. Bill opened his front door. Bill went back into the house. Bill closed the front door. Bill went back up the stairs. Bill went back into the bedroom. Bill went back over to the bed. Bill took off his jacket. The freshly cleaned grey jacket. Bill picked up the coat hanger from the bed. Bill hung the jacket back on the hanger. Bill went back over to the wardrobe. Bill opened the wardrobe door. Bill hung the jacket back inside the wardrobe. Bill stepped back from the wardrobe. Bill looked at the mirror on the back of the wardrobe door. Bill stared at the mirror on the back of the wardrobe door. Into the mirror on the back of the wardrobe door. The man in the mirror on the back of the wardrobe door. In his red shirt. The collar too big. Bill looked at the man. Bill stared at the man. The man shaking his head. Fighting back tears, struggling to breathe. And Bill said, I have not written anything derogatory about anyone. I have just stated facts. My book is ninety-nine per cent about people and one per cent of criticism. And people have dived in to talk about that one per cent. But that one per cent is fair comment. About fact, about what has happened.
People did want Bill Shankly to be involved in some way. People at big clubs, people at small clubs. People did think Bill Shankly could
do the game a lot of good. At big clubs, at small clubs. His knowledge of the game. His knowledge of people. People called Bill Shankly. People invited Bill Shankly to their big club and to their small club. To share his knowledge of the game, to share his knowledge of people. Derby County called Bill Shankly. Derby County asked Bill Shankly if he would consider taking on an advisory role at the Baseball Ground. To share his knowledge of the game, to share his knowledge of people. I’m seriously thinking about this offer, Bill Shankly told the gentlemen of the local press. Because I would feel as if I were part of something again. I envisage going to the Baseball Ground once or twice a week. But that does not affect Colin Murphy’s position at all. And I’m not being pushed for a decision. It’s not like being asked to get a spade out and dig the road. But I would feel as if I were part of the game again without having the worries of a manager. When you are a manager, you have more worries than the prime minister. And he’s got enough. But I would feel as if I were part of something. I would be helping with the training and the playing side of the club, working on little details like where to eat and what time to go to bed and so on. I could come and go as I please, maybe just going in one day a week, which suits me fine. But I would feel as if I were part of something again. I go to the games anyway, so I wouldn’t be away from home any more than I am now. But I would feel as if I were part of something. I have been in football forty-three years and sometimes I get a bit moody and fidgety. Going to the games is fine but, having been involved, it’s better if you go with the official party. And I would feel as though I were part of something again …
And Bill Shankly did seriously think about the offer. Bill Shankly seriously thinking, Bill Shankly seriously wondering. Whether he should go or whether he should not go. Bill Shankly knowing and Bill Shankly not knowing. Whether he should go or whether he should not go. Round and around. Bill Shankly thinking, Bill Shankly wondering. Whether he should go or whether he should not go. Until Bill Shankly did know. And Bill Shankly did not go. Bill Shankly stayed at home. In Liverpool. Bill Shankly waiting. Still waiting, always waiting. For the letter on the mat, the knock on the door. Or the call on the phone –
Tommy Docherty rang Bill Shankly. Tommy Docherty invited
Bill Shankly to Old Trafford. For the match against Liverpool Football Club. Tommy Docherty asked Bill Shankly if he would like to be the guest of Manchester United. For the match against Liverpool Football Club. And to share his knowledge of the game, his knowledge of people. And before the match at Old Trafford. The match against Liverpool Football Club. Tommy Docherty invited Bill Shankly into the dressing room at Old Trafford. The Manchester United dressing room. Bill Shankly walked around the dressing room at Old Trafford. The Manchester United dressing room. Bill Shankly shook hands with Alex Stepney, Jimmy Nicholl, Brian Greenhoff, Martin Buchan, Stewart Houston, Steve Coppell, Lou Macari, Sammy McIlroy, Gordon Hill, Jimmy Greenhoff, Stuart Pearson and David McCreery. Bill Shankly patted the backs of the players of Manchester United. Bill Shankly wished the players of Manchester United the best of luck. The best of luck for the match. The match against Liverpool Football Club.
After the match at Old Trafford. The match against Liverpool Football Club. The nil–nil draw with Liverpool Football Club. Tommy Docherty invited Bill Shankly to have a meal with him in the restaurant at Old Trafford. And Bill Shankly sat with Tommy Docherty in the restaurant at Old Trafford. Bill Shankly ate with Tommy Docherty. Bill Shankly talked with Tommy Docherty. Joked with Tommy Docherty, laughed with Tommy Docherty. Joked a lot and laughed a lot. Until Tommy Docherty needed a piss. And Tommy Docherty got up from their table in the restaurant at Old Trafford. Tommy Docherty walked across the restaurant at Old Trafford. Past the table of the directors. The directors of Manchester United and the directors of Liverpool Football Club. And Sidney Reakes stopped Tommy. And Sidney Reakes said, I see Bill Shankly is here …
Aye, said Tommy. Bill is welcome here.