The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa Collected Works: Volume Two (53 page)

As far as shunyata goes, that you decided to come and take part in this particular seminar is futile. You might meet with disappointment in that this seminar does not say what is or what isn’t. And you cannot get your money’s worth. In other words, you can’t get your money back. Oh, no! You expect too much. You’re not going to be refunded. It’
your
hang-up, expecting too much out of shunyata, which means nothing! But it means everything at the same time.

We could have a discussion if you like. Please.

Student:
You mean to say our money is gone, gone, gone—[
Laughter
]

Vidyadhara:
Somewhat.

Student:
What’s the relationship between shunyata and prajnaparamita?

Vidyadhara:
Shunyata is the subject that prajnaparamita perceives.

Student:
Is it still a dual situation?

Vidyadhara:
Shunyata? Sure.

S:
I thought you said it transcended dualism.

V:
Non-shunyata. Nonemptiness.

S:
I’m not sure I quite understand how shunyata can now be dual, because I thought you said shunyata transcended dualism.

V:
Shunyata is, in this case, nondwelling. But nondwelling in itself means dwelling on nondwelling. So we have to transcend shunyata from that point of view.

S:
That’s like saying not-two is one. But in previous seminars not-two is not-one, not-two—just the way things are. So nondwelling is not necessarily dwelling.

V:
In previous seminars two is not one, in terms of meaning. But in this case,
one
is not one. [
Laughter
] [
Long pause
]

S:
Well, why was the subject of shunyata ever brought up? [
Laughter
] Mentioning it seems to add something to the situation.

V:
Because the subject of shunyata is there already.

S:
I never thought of it! I never thought of shunyata. [
Laughter
]

V:
Because of that, because you haven’t thought of it, therefore it is there already. It happens.

S:
You mean the absence of that thought itself is emptiness?

V:
Yeah, somewhat.

Student:
What do you think we should discuss tomorrow in our discussion period?

Vidyadhara:
Shunyata. [
Laughter
]

Student:
Is it prajna that is negating? Is it prajna saying not-this?

Vidyadhara:
Not necessarily. You see, the whole point is that there is something worth exploring—and having explored the whole thing, we discover nothing. But it’s not worth it not to explore either, because things are so. [
Vidyadhara snaps fan shut
.]
GATE, GATE, PARAGATE, PARA
SAM
GATE, BODHI SVAHA
.

S:
Gone
safely
beyond, right?

V:
No!

S:
In my translation of the
Heart Sutra
it says, “Gone, gone, gone safely beyond.”

V:
Safely?! [
Laughter
]

S:
“Safely beyond,” yeah.

V:
Must have been translated on Madison Avenue. [
Laughter
]

S:
I doubt it.

V:
Possibly.

S:
So how do you translate it?

V:
“Gone, gone, gone beyond, no security saves you whatever.”
Para
means “beyond,” like the idea of parapsychology, it means “beyond concept”—“gone, gone, gone beyond the idea of gone beyond”—
sam
means “complete”;
gate
means “gone.” Simple.

Student:
There’s a translation that reads “gone
fully
beyond.” Would you say that’s a good one?

Vidyadhara:
You don’t need that kind of adjective [
laughter
]—because it is so! Black is black, white is white! So what, after that? It’s as obvious as that.

Student:
If prajna cuts through duality, is that an action that evolves into shunyata? Does the operation itself still remain after that?

Vidyadhara:
It seems that if you think it is involved, it is so; whereas if you don’t think it is involved, it does not exist. It is purely up to your expectations. Quite simple. It is purely up to you. The teaching depends on you. In other words, samsara depends on nirvana and nirvana depends on samsara.

S:
What I was trying to get at is that there seems to be something that remains after shunyata, because you said that after shunyata you get non-shunyata.

V:
That’s up to you.

S:
Excuse me?

V:
That’s up to you.

S:
That’s just a view?

V:
Up to you, up to you! It depends on you! It doesn’t have to be that way. If you want some security, it always happens that way.

S:
There’s a statement that emptiness is form and form is emptiness. Is there a progressive relationship between the two?

V:
I don’t think so, because they are defeating each other. The statements defeat each other. Emptiness is form, therefore form is emptiness—they are defeating each other all the time, destroying the previous statement successively. So you have nothing to dwell on at all. Black is white, white is black. The statements defeat each other all the time, so you don’t have anything to dwell on anymore at all. That’s it.

S:
But the dwelling still exists, although faintly.

V:
Doesn’t exist.

S:
It doesn’t exist?

V:
Because you are already busted. [
Laughter
]

S:
As well as absorbed into nirvana.

V:
I don’t know about nirvana.

S:
Whatever, yeah.

Student:
Is there a relationship to skillful means?

Vidyadhara:
That is skillful means!

S:
Shunyate
is
skillful means?

V:
Yes.

S:
Then how come in the symbolism you have a symbol for each?

V:
I’ve never seen a symbol for each.

S:
I was under the impression that the dorje, or the thunderbolt, was symbolic of skillful means and the bell was symbolic of shunyata, and that Dorje Chang holds both of them and that they’re joined together.

V:
So what?

S:
That is why I was asking you, so what?

V:
I don’t know. I have no idea! [
Laughter
] I don’t understand about that!

S:
Neither do I.

V:
I don’t know!

Student:
What is the stage after shunyata?

Vidyadhara:
I don’t know! [
Laughter
]

S:
Does anyone?

V:
Your guess is as good as mine. I really don’t know! [
Laughter
]

Student:
There are all sorts of practices, like mahamudra, that come after the shunyata experience.

Vidyadhara:
I don’t know.

S:
Who knows?

V:
Nobody! I really don’t know!

Student:
Is it possible to be absorbed in shunyata materialistically, spiritually materialistically?

Vidyadhara:
It is possible, definitely, yes. If you think you have grasped shunyata, you’ve been absorbed into it as a sedative, which is very dangerous. But beyond that there is no danger. So it is quite possible.

S:
To be absorbed into it as a sedative?

V:
Yes.

S:
Could you explain what you mean by that?

V:
Sedative! Quite simple.

S:
To use it as a sedative you would have to
think
you’ve grasped shunyata.

V:
Sure.

S:
Which means you really haven’t?

V:
That’s right. [
Laughter
] You are quite right. Well said!

Student:
Is the sedative quality related to the fact that shunyata experience accompanies the idea of giving up expectations, but that giving up expectations is a hang-up?

Vidyadhara:
Yes.

S:
So the sedative quality comes from the fact that you’ve given everything up—

V:
That you have some technique to do it. Technique is a sedative, as it usually is.

Student:
Is it possible for the responses visualized through the tantras to be faster as a result of the breakthrough beyond duality?

Vidyadhara:
It’s possible, yes.

S:
Is it spontaneity?

V:
I think so. Spontaneity becomes hang-up.

Student:
Is the technique holding in or putting more out?

Vidyadhara:
Both. It depends on the person.

Student:
Does shunyata mean not-hesitation, or is it just a concept?

Vidyadhara:
It seems to be both. The idea of shunyata is a concept. You understand it to begin with, then you begin to dwell on it. That could be the cause of hang-ups or further concepts.

S:
So it is a concept to begin with.

V:
Yes.

S:
So we don’t exist without any hang-up.

V:
It could be a hang-up, because there was a concept at the beginning that sent a message down to the underworld of security. It could become a hang-up, or problem, because you have something to hang on to as a handle.

Student:
Would you have thoughts?

Vidyadhara:
Well, that’s a problem—

S:
But would you be one with the thoughts?

V:
—because the whole thing is one with your thoughts. The concept of shunyata is involved with your thoughts; therefore the whole thing becomes a hang-up. Thoughts are usually concerned with what is not directed to you and what is directed to you; there is hope and fear as to what is for you, what is not for you. Constant fear or hope is involved.

S:
Well, I meant thoughts in the sense that if you have a retinocyclograph machine, whenever a light flashes into your eyes, usually there is a corresponding thought, a certain kind of mental registration.

V:
They’re the same thing. That is thought.

S:
Right. I’m just trying to think about if in shunyata you’d still have that kind of thought process.

V:
I don’t think so. In shunyata, these particular details are not involved—aggression or passion or accuracy or whatever. In shunyata, the whole idea of thought is things as they are, which is not dependent on logical proof. It transcends proof.

S:
Is that a state of total awareness?

V:
Somewhat.

Student:
You talked about the idea of shunyata as being a sedative, but could it be that shunyata is an antidote to suffering in the dark? Would it then be the same kind of sedative?

Vidyadhara:
I don’t think so. Shunyata looks at the definite quality of pain—pain as pain, pleasure as pleasure. It can be quite simple.

S:
But if it’s the actual empty nature of pain—I mean, isn’t pain something that we think of as solid?

V:
No, in shunyata experience you don’t see the empty nature of pain at all. Pain is pain in its own existence because form is form and emptiness is emptiness. It sees its own identity as such a definite thing, constantly.

S:
So it just acknowledges?

V:
Feels it and acknowledges it as it is.

Student:
I was wondering, as a result of the relationship of subject and object, or observer and observed, you have a sort of duality set up. When duality is destroyed, does the observer become one with the observed, or do the observer and the observed both in a sense vanish?

Vidyadhara:
That’s right, yes.

S:
Vanish into one.

V:
Yes.

S:
But it’s not sequential, that the observed disappears and the observer doesn’t, but the two simultaneously?

V:
Neither would it be nonsequential, the observer and what is observed.

S:
Yeah. In other words, discontinuity becomes continuous.

V:
Yes.

S:
Good.

V:
Somewhat.

S:
Why only somewhat?

V:
Why not? [
Laughter
]

S:
Every time you say “somewhat,” there’s the idea that we miss something.

V:
Beyond doubt.

S:
Beyond a doubt? Then you should not say “somewhat,” you should say “precisely!”

V:
No. You could say “somewhat.” You have stretched over all areas, therefore you are imperial, you are the master of the whole situation. Therefore,
somewhat
! [
Laughter
] When you say “precise,” you become a little businessman.
Somewhat
. If you say “something”—that’s different. When you say “somewhat,” you have preserved your whole thing.

S:
You mean when you say “somewhat” it’s more than just a little point but—

V:
Precisely, yes. [
Much laughter
]