The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa Collected Works: Volume Two (59 page)

So shunyata in this case is panoramic vision in which things could be accommodated. At the same time, the accommodation itself becomes a perception of its own. In other words, the container and what is contained become one. They complement each other. Therefore there is no question about maintaining the container in order to contain what is contained. In terms of the dharmakaya principle, the formlessness of the second kaya, it is a state of complete openness because dharmakaya or formlessness is not dependent on any relative proof. It is completely free of comparison. For the very fact that it could exist by itself, therefore, this level of understanding of the shunyata principle is almost more at the level of what is called
jnana
, which means “wisdom.”

The difference between jnana, or wisdom, and prajna, or knowledge, is that in the case of knowledge you still need relationship. It is still
experience
as far as the popular idea of shunyata is concerned. There is still play, interchange, interaction, at the level of form and energy. In the case of dharmakaya, there is no relationship, there is no interaction or interchange. But it seems to be rather difficult explaining that particular state, because in fact we cannot say that there is
not
interchange, there is
not
relationship. But quite much more to the point is that interchange or relationship is not valid anymore. It is already related, it is already interchanged. Therefore the question of being in that state of dharmakaya shunyata experience is futile. We can’t say that we have achieved dharmakaya or that we have achieved that particular state of wisdom, or jnana, at all. In other words, we could say that jnana cannot be achieved. Jnana consumes one, rather than one relating to jnana.

So the last part of shunyata’s achievement is the experience of ultimate non-ego. You could have the experience of ego to begin with as a hang-up, problematic, irritating. Then you have the transcending of that ego and you feel the absence of ego, the nondualistic qualities of ego; you feel a sense of emptiness, a sense of absence. In the end, at the dharmakaya level, even the absence of ego is not felt, because the whole thing is not seen as an attainment in any way at all. It is not regarded as attainment or nonattainment. In other words, the ultimate understanding of shunyata—or the attainment of shunyatahood, so to speak—is impossible from that point of view. If there are any possibilities, that in itself is self-defeating. “Impossible” in this sense does not necessarily mean that you can’t have it, you can’t get to it. But the question of getting it does not apply anymore. The question of having it does not apply anymore. It is the complete destruction of ego, completely dissolving the state of ego. So we cannot celebrate that we have attained enlightenment because there is no one to take part in the celebration.

We could have a discussion.

Student:
Is there anything positive you can say about ego? Is there anything beneficial about ego? Do you know what I mean?

Vidyadhara:
Well, I suppose the spiritual search altogether is due to ego. Without ego, we wouldn’t be studying. So ego is the instigator of the whole thing.

Student:
I have some difficulty with the idea of containment—for instance, that sound contains silence. I can understand that sound
implies
silence, that form
implies
space, or maybe sound
arose out of
silence, but the idea that sound
contains
silence is something I don’t grasp.

Vidyadhara:
You see, that is basically the point of view in which you don’t regard yourself as the listener to the sound. The sound or music plays by itself and does not have a player or a listener. Then sound is contained by itself. It’s a question of mostly using the language of evaluation, that there is an audience to judge it. So you hear the sound according to the audience, rather than the sound being heard by itself. [
Snaps fan
]

S:
Would the formulation that sound
implies
silence and silence
implies
sound be consistent with that?

V:
That’s right, yes. They are complementary to one another.

S:
One can’t exist without the other.

V:
That’s right. Sound can exist without an audience, without a listener, but sound cannot exist without silence. The idea of shunyata that we have been talking about all this time is not shunyata as we see it, but shunyata as it is—from the point of view of its own dimension.

S:
And it’s always the ego that evaluates.

V:
That’s right, it is ego that evaluates. And it is also because of ego that we find enormous distortion.

S:
But once you rid yourself of the ego, you merge with the total situation.

V:
That only could happen through ego.

S:
You have to pass through that door.

V:
You have to have ego—somewhat. [
Laughter
]

S:
But it isn’t necessarily that we should all like it though? [
Partially inaudible
]

V:
At that point, evaluation doesn’t apply. Liking or disliking is arbitrary, because ego is also arbitrary.

Student:
What would be intelligent discrimination, as in the buddha family wisdom of discrimination, discriminating wisdom?

Vidyadhara:
That is nonwatcher, from the point of view of ego. You don’t have to watch, you don’t have to experience, in other words. The experience is there already; therefore the situation becomes discriminating awareness rather than that you are discriminating. Therefore the whole idea of skillful means is that you work according to the situation rather than your view of the situation. You work accordingly, which is still very slow.

Student:
You said that at first shunyata has a very cold quality, and then you said that after you lose your fears, shunyata develops a warm quality. Could you comment on that?

Vidyadhara:
To begin with, when we realize that the primitive idea of security does not apply anymore, it is very terrifying, threatening. That comes from the idea of looking for a secure home, to begin with, that you regard spiritual practice as something that secures you. But you come to the understanding that that is not so, that you have to give up the security and give up hope and everything. That gives new perspective to the whole practice. You tend to try to struggle with that, trying to interpret and to reinterpret—that giving up hope is the ultimate hope, giving up security is the ultimate security, and so forth. And we can go on like that, trying to find a way of twisting it around. But we realize that there is no hope, there is no way of finding a new strategy because shunyata is a hard fact. There is nothing you can con about it.

Then, having accepted the whole thing, you can begin to relax. You begin to let things fall through because you realize you have nothing really to lose. If you have anything happen, there is something to gain. So that is the starting point where warmth begins to happen, generosity begins to develop. You have nothing to lose, therefore you have nothing to secure about anything at all. And the spontaneous quality of warmth and compassion is the expression of generosity. You become generous to yourself to begin with; therefore the expression of being generous to others becomes a natural situation.

Student:
Would you say something about the primitive energy of anger?

Vidyadhara:
Anger seems to be the same as any of the other emotions. You decide to develop repelling vibrations as a way of proving that you don’t need anything. You have everything, therefore you can afford to lose, you can afford to crush down and destroy. It is based on passion, fundamentally speaking. You are so passionately involved in trying to prove something. And the way of demonstrating that passion is rejection, pressing down, destroying.

S:
The liberation of it, being prepared for that through the tradition, would create security?

V:
It creates apprehension. You find that you have to stick to the dogma as something to hang on to, otherwise you could lose everything—which actually doesn’t mean that you won’t begin to do that. So the aftereffect [of any of those] is to explode, destroy, crush down, and then stick to your own logic, your own dogma, your own philosophy, which secures you and makes you have the right to be angry.

Student:
Could you just think about the death of shunyata?

Vidyadhara:
I suppose you could say that the death of shunyata is that when the first two kayas have been passed beyond, prajna becomes jnana. That is the death of shunyata, because shunyata means that you are being aware of emptiness, being aware of formlessness, of the nondualistic state. And that negativity becomes part of the learning process, part of one’s experience. So finally, experience begins to merge into nonexperience, nonattainment. That is the experience of dharmakaya, that prahna becomes jnana. Thank you.

S:
Do you mean that which is aware of space actually becomes space itself? So there is no, there is not—

V:
That’s right, yes. I know what you mean. [
Laughter
]

Student:
What is the difference between evaluation and discrimination?

Vidyadhara:
You could say that evaluation is primitive discrimination. You don’t see things as they are, but you need some help to see things as they are, which is putting value on it. But in true discrimination, particularly in terms of discriminating awareness wisdom, you don’t need the help of evaluation anymore because you just see things simply as they are without reinforcement. In other words, evaluation seems to have a sense of uncertainty. You need somebody else, somebody else’s help to make sure that your experience is the safe one, the right one, the good one or the bad one, whatever. In the case of discriminating, you are not dependent on anything at all. It’s just firsthand experience, one blow.

Student:
Rinpoche, why does Buddhist literature sometimes say to stop discriminating and other times says discriminating mind is the mind of wisdom? Yesterday you mentioned something about discrimination and projection, that you discriminate that it’s four o’clock or you discriminate that this is an enemy and that is a lover, that kind of stuff. That is a kind of discrimination, but I have a feeling that there is also a bad kind. Do you know what that is?

Vidyadhara:
Well, as I said already, discriminating in terms of evaluation is primitive discrimination. Once you have perceived things, I don’t think you need to evaluate them or that you need confirmation. In the case of discriminating awareness wisdom, evaluation doesn’t apply anymore because evaluation confuses you further as to what you are discriminating.

S:
Is it more direct?

V:
Yes. We could say that it is your flash of experience.

S:
What?

V:
The spontaneity.

Student:
Rinpoche, I’ve been trying to figure out what you mean by discipline. I’m not exactly sure.

Vidyadhara:
Again, there seem to be different levels of discipline: disciplining in order to achieve something, and disciplining because things are as they are. The first one, disciplining because of something, is not really discipline but looking for an alternative situation to occupy your renunciation by accepting something new into it. There’s the story of King Prithika, who dreamt elephants went out of the house through the window but their tails could not get out of the window. He thought that was a bad omen for his kingdom, his future. So he asked the Buddha. And the Buddha said: That is a prophetic dream for my followers. They leave home and renounce their homes and sense pleasures, but their viharas, or monasteries, become secondary homes. So they can’t get out of that; their tails get stuck.

Then there is another kind of discipline, which is just reducing unnecessary things. It is not necessarily giving up or renouncing, but simplifying, not producing new stuff or further confusions to occupy yourself. It is like the practice of meditation, for instance. It is a simple technique, a simple practice, and you just work with that. You are not regarded as following a course, but you regard your practice as purely relating with your basic innate nature. No further stuff has been introduced at all. The same thing applies in your living situation. You live a disciplined life by not introducing further chaos. That chaos might take the form of seduction or the form of destroying seduction, whatever it may be. Both seem to be sidetracks. So discipline is being true, to the right point, not introducing further stuff, not giving yourself further toys.

Student:
You spoke of the obligatory emotions of the ego, the repertory of emotions driving the ego. I wonder if you mean that they are obligatory in the sense that in the state one is in—and the ego is the result of that state—those emotions are also necessary, that they are both necessary and convincing to this state. You also said that the ego is distorting something in the process. Is it the material of the higher emotions that is being distorted? Is that material always there, but in wrong function in the state where we are within the sleep of ego? And then one’s recognition begins to awaken about how lost one is in this state and that recognition begins to free that material back into the place in you where it can function with its right normality. That is, you might mature emotions or develop emotions through freeing yourself from using the material of emotions.

Vidyadhara:
Obligatory is simply from ego’s point of view. It is obligatory because we have to maintain ourselves by presenting all kinds of occupations. We reject that which is about to attack our territory and we invite that which secures our territory. That seems to be the obligatory ape-instinct ego, animal instinct of ego.