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But why don t they give them? For what reason? They re really the first who must tell the truth about themselves, in order to put an end to this totally suicidal war. Why then do they keep saying: the details when we meet ; why don t they immediately go to the Commission that you created for investigating these terrorist attacks; why don t they act on their own initiative; why are you - an independent historical researcher - now doing more than they are?
The answer is simple. They are now in hiding. There s a large price on their heads.
They re being hunted by the FSB and the GRU. In the places where they re hiding, they re not alone but among groups of people.
They re being hunted by one group and provided for by another? If the GRU hired them, then why is the GRU hunting them? To kill them or to arrest them?
Either to kill them or to arrest them. In any case, to force them to be quiet. Their testimony has to be studied, many questions have to be asked. A genuine, serious investigation has to be conducted in order to identify all the terrorists, at all levels, who took part in the 1999 terrorist attacks. For me, their testimony does not look like a falsification, since if it were, believe me, it would have been a simple black-and-white statement like we confirm that we were recruited by the Russian security services and that we carried out the bombings on instructions from the FSB and the GRU. But their testimony, as you see for yourself, raises more questions than it answers. Today Krymshamkhalov, Batchayev, and Gochiyaev are being controlled by certain groups of people. They are not free. Not free to move around, not free to make decisions.
Controlled by Chechens? Fighters?
Chechens. The three of them can t survive on their own: they would either get killed or sold, because they re being hunted by serious Russian security agents.
In other words, Chechen groups are protecting them? Own them?
Own, more than protect. But also protect, certainly.
In other words, terrorists can be bought and sold?
With Gochiyaev, this is definitely the case. He is definitely not free to do as he wishes.
In other words, it s not Gochiyaev who determines if he s going to give interviews, answer questions.
You saw this personally?
It s a conclusion I ve reached. I can t say that I saw it, because I repeat, I haven t seen any of these people. The information is gathered and received by us in various ways, but neither I nor Alexander Litvinenko have seen any of these people, ever. That s why I m now talking about my impressions and conclusions. I think that they are completely
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correct. Krymshamkhalov s and Batchayev s degree of freedom is undoubtedly substantially greater than Gochiyaev s. By the way, the materials that I submitted to Novaya Gazeta make this sufficiently obvious.
If Gochiyaev, according to his testimony, had nothing to do with it, then why is he being so protected and kept under such tight control? Essentially, almost imprisoned?
Why doesn t he go to the General Prosecutor s Office?
I don t think we should leave anything unsaid here and present the situation in a rosy light. He cannot turn himself in to Russian law enforcement because these are agencies with vested interests. If he turns himself in, we ll never find out the truth, period. The crux of the problem, however, is that the people who control Gochiyaev are demanding money for his release.
During the TV bridge from London in July of this year, Litvinenko and I were asked a question: Why didn t we obtain from Gochiyaev the name of the FSB agent who transported hexogene in sugar bags to Gochiyaev s storage space? Without this name Gochiyaev s declaration looks considerably less convincing than it would with it. Trust me, I ve tried to find out the name of the FSB agent repeatedly, at every convenient opportunity. The only thing that I ve been able to find out is that the FSB officer who stored explosives with Gochiyaev has made a decent career for himself, has been promoted, and to this day works for the security services. Today he is a well-known figure. But any further information can be obtained only in exchange for money. Without money, Gochiyaev will not provide the name. And since from the very beginning, we never had any intention of paying - explaining that we can t pay for information, since information that is paid for is no longer authentic - we haven t been told the name of the FSB agent who hired Gochiyaev to store the explosives.
It becomes a closed circle. Because if you pay, you ll find out the name that the person who paid the money wants to hear; you won t obtain any real information. Do I understand correctly that money is much more important to them than the suffering which their people are going through in the war?
I ve spent many hours talking to them about this subject. And my argument - that they re the ones who need this most - hasn t worked so far. Yes, they re the ones who need it, but for the moment they also need money. I m not going to give a moral evaluation of these people s behavior. This is the reality with which we were confronted.
The same problem came up when we were getting testimony from Krymshamkhalov and Batchayev, who are being controlled by other people. When asked if they know everything, they reply: yes, we know everything. When asked if they re ready to tell everything, they also reply yes. When asked if they d be ready to appear in a European court in a third country, they reply: yes, we re ready. But until we re given money, with which we can provide for our families, we won t give up the information that we possess.
And you can do what you like.
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But you must admit that this is really a kind of cannibalistic position, no? First buildings with living people inside them get blown up, whole families with children&
Then the sadists say: yes, we blew them up, but in order to say who was involved, concretely, we need money to provide for our families&
Yes, yes& But since I m the listener here, nothing depends on me. The only thing I can do is to say, for the hundredth time, like a parrot, that we ve already been through this, that we don t pay for information&
But what s the next step, then? Look: they re there, they re alive. Is that a fact? Yes.
They re now being controlled by certain people who aren t part of the Russian federal apparatus. Or are they?
They re not. Moreover, I m certain that, in one way or another, they re part of those whom we call Chechen guerillas or Chechen separatists. But this is, again, my own assumption.
And these people are buying and selling terrorists whom they hold as hostages! Is it fair to say that?
Yes. Although Gochiyaev does not consider himself a terrorist.
And in order to allow the terrorists to talk, they re demanding that we, who are the terrorists hostages, pay them money. Right? So what do we do next?
Nothing. That s the reason why I personally believe that my and Alexander Litvinenko s reportorial investigation of this subject - I mean, obtaining testimony from Krymshamkhalov, Batchayev, and Gochiyaev - has reached a dead end. That s my frank opinion.
You talk about them demanding money. Tell me, in order for you to meet with Gochiyaev, Batchayev, and Krymshamkhalov, all wanted by the FSB, how much money did they demand?
Well, you know, in such situations everyone likes large, round figures& And not just to meet with them, but to meet with them and to get their testimony on videotape, with a guarantee that all our questions will be answered.
A large, round figure in their opinion is - how much?
The sum mentioned was three million dollars. It s clear that there s no way I could obtain three million dollars. So my ethical considerations in this case are in complete agreement with my absolute practical inability to pay this kind of money.
Interview conducted by Dmitriy MURATOV
December 09, 2002
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Appendix 18 Print-out of the interview given by A. Gochiyaev on August 20, 2002 The interview was given to someone he knew well and recorded with a video camera.
As proof of the tape s existence we were sent the first minute of the video interview. The handwritten transcription was sent to us on January 18, 2003. The text has been noted down from the video tape with many inaccuracies. A precise print-out of the first minute of the video tape is given below. However, to judge from this first minute of the video interview, there are no substantial distortions of meaning. In the text of the handwritten transcription, on the initiative of the owners of the tape the names of two people, (K.) and (Kh.), have been omitted, as we were warned that they would be. The people who control Gochiyaev and own the tape were expecting to get from us money precisely for these names.
Text of the first minute of the interview, checked against the tape:
Question: Tell us about yourself, where were you born?
Answer: My name is Achemez Shagabanovich Gochiyaev. I am a native of Karachayevo-Cherkessia. Until 1988 I lived in the republic. In 1988 after graduating from secondary school I went to study in Moscow, was drafted into the army, then went back and lived in Moscow again. Until September 1999 I lived in Moscow. I lived in Moscow in the Strogino Region, on Marshal Katukov Street.
Question: How did it happen that precisely your name began to be linked with the blowing-up of houses in Moscow? The special services of Russia accuse you directly of organizing these explosions. (recording breaks off).
Print-out of the handwritten transcription of A. Gochiyaev s video interview, August
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20, 2002
The spelling and punctuation of the original document have been retained In this interview a great deal is left unspoken. The first names and surnames of currently active FSB employees involved in these events are known. To this day they are living peacefully in their homes and occupy high positions.
This is the only interview. The correspondent is a person he knows well.
Question: Can you introduce yourself please?
Answer: I am Achemez Shagabanovich Gochiyaev. I was born in the Karachayevo- Cherkesskaya Republic. Until 1988 I lived in the KChR. After graduating from school in 1988 I went to Moscow, to study. From there I was drafted into the army. I went back
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and lived in Moscow again. Until September 1999 I lived in Moscow on Marshal Batukov Street.
Question: How did it happen that precisely your name began to be linked with the blowing-up of houses in Moscow? The special services of Russia accuse precisely you of organizing these explosions. Why is it you they blame?
Answer: How did I come to find myself in this situation. In 1997 I set up a firm for building cottages. I did building work. In the summer of 1999 an old acquaintance whom I had known from the school days came to the firm to see me. He is called (K.). He invited me to go into business with him. He said that he had places for selling goods, i.e. food products and I should help him. I supply food products, he sells them and pays me.
One time he ordered mineral water from me, I delivered it to him and he paid me. Then he asked me to help him rent storage premises in the south of Moscow, he said he had good sales points there. I found four storage premises, showed them to him and helped him to rent them. Immediately after this the explosion at 9 Gurianov Street took place.
That day I was not at home, I was at a friend s place. He phoned me on my mobile and said there had been some kind of fire at the storage premises and I had to go there. I said, All right and started getting ready. It was already almost morning. I phoned for a taxi and switched on the television. In the morning news I saw that there was almost nothing left of the house. That put me on my guard and I waited. And when, a few days later, there was a second explosion on Kashirskoe Shosse, I finally realized that I had been set up. I immediately phoned the police and the rescue services and informed them of the other two storage premises; at Borisovskie Prudy Street, in the Kapotnya district, there was another store in a prefabricated garage. After that I had to leave Moscow. I went back to the republic and lived there for a certain time. Now what can I say. I know that this man (K.) no longer hides the fact that he is an FSB employee, that he works in the FSB in the city of Cherkessk. I didn t know that before, when I helped him.
Question: Do you think it was precisely (K.) who set you up?
Answer: Yes, of course. I m sure of it, he was the one who did it. Who was with him, how it was done I don t know for sure, or these people either. The only thing I can tell you is that once on my way home I decided to drop in to visit him - he wasn t expecting me. When I walked into his place, there was another man there with him. After I d said hello, that man left immediately. By following the press and searching the internet just recently I found out who that man was. He was (Kh.)& !!
Question: Are you sure that is definitely the man you saw?
Answer: Yes, I recognized him from a photograph..! Apart from that, in late August and early September (K.) made several trips to Ryazan and he asked me to help him there as well. Supposedly he had places for selling goods there as well, but since he had no firm of his own, as he told me, and he wanted me to register the renting of these storage premises to my form. But then he apparently found some other firm that helped him to
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rent the premises. I know for certain that (K.) made a trip to Ryazan at the beginning of September.
Question: What do you think, why did he choose precisely you and not someone else to rent these storage premises?
Answer: I think that the point is that I worked in Moscow.
Question: When did you work there?
Answer: I was working there in 1997, building cottages.
Question: Was the firm registered?
Answer: Yes the firm was called KAPSTROI-2000. My construction office was in the area of the Barikadnoe metro station. There s a two story building beside the metro.
Question: The press has often presented information that you re a Chechen, that definitely the terrorist attacks that blew up the houses in Moscow were organized by Khattab, that you were a member of Khattab s group. There s a photograph published in the internet where you and Khattab are in the same shot. How true are these photographs?
Answer: Concerning that I can tell you the following. If you mean that photograph in the internet where I am supposed to be in a beard and a cap beside Khattab - I ve seen that photograph in the internet. That man is not me and he doesn t even look much like me, and it has already been proved that it is a photomontage! Although the Russian FSB claims to this day that it is me. Now we can see and understand what it was done for.