Authors: Marianne Schnall
So it isn’t just, oh, we want equal representation because we should be there, why not? It’s also what happens is different. And we
really
need it in politics. And you see a gender difference in voting; it’s significant. Now
50 percent of the people voting Democratic are women. But why? Why is it so different? Why is there a gap? It’s because we really have different life experiences and different positions, not just on reproductive rights, by the way—it’s on violence against women, it’s on attitudes toward the environment. We tend to be far more cautious on the environment and much more concerned about future generations. For years, women have favored more peaceful solutions. And, by the way, a lot of people want to say that’s because we’re mothers, and that does not bear out in analysis. Because the women who are not mothers also feel the same way. So basically there is a gender difference because of life experiences, and I can go on to a whole host of issues—Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, healthcare, education—all those issues, women feel much differently. There’s a statistical difference that’s pronounced in our attitudes, so it will matter, not only because of fair play—a woman should have an equal chance, the whole thing—but
outcomes
. There will be a difference.
MS
: One of the things I’ve been hearing a lot that is also somewhat holding women back, whether it’s from leadership in Washington or just generally, is this juggling of work and family life. I keep wondering if we had more women in Washington, would there be . . .
ES
: [Equal] pay, family medical leave. Most women I know can’t even imagine . . . how is it that we’re penalized for having children? How can it be? You have veterans programs. Men see that; they don’t see why shouldn’t there be mothers’ preference? Or forget that, why not caregiving preference? That’s even fairer. It’s the woman in the family who tends to take care of the elderly parents, we all know that. It’s no secret. It’s the daughter, the daughter-in-law even, and there are always all kinds of reasons that the man can’t do it. That’s not everyone—my brothers were absolutely super for my parents—but all I’m saying is we’re looking at
averages, and far more women say, “My mother’s sick, I have to take off this job.” So basically there would be family Medicare, paid family Medicare—we now have Family Medical Leave, but it’s unpaid. And who fought for it? The women’s movement. And there weren’t enough women in Congress. We have to give those things. To have a more civilized society, we have to. It’s just like universal pre-K, which I’m so happy that the president put it in his State of the Union. That’s imperative really for kids, and you know that women feel strongly about it. So, basically, there would be tremendous change. That’s been one of my life goals of trying to increase women’s political clout.
MS
: It does seem that there’s a hopeful paradigm shift, not just with women, but with more diversity in general, even judging from this last election or the fact that we have an African American president. Do you feel hopeful?
ES
: And we wouldn’t have one without the women’s vote, just remember that. The majority of men voted for his opponent. We wouldn’t have this kind of diversity if it weren’t for women. We are all celebrating the gains for gay marriage. We wouldn’t have passed one of them, not one—all four amendments that were on the ballots that went in the direction of gay marriage were because a majority of women voted for them; a majority of men voted against them. That’s the kind of attitudinal difference . . . it wasn’t that there weren’t some men that voted with us; I’m not saying that. But it’s just that there is still a significant gap with men, especially white men, holding onto a past—a majority of them, not an overwhelming majority, but still a majority. And also the reason why we’re enthusiastic is now the young have changed. In this last election you could see it. I’ve seen it for a long time, because I’ve been working with young people for a long, long time—I never believed all this garbage that you read over and over again
that the young are not with us and all that. It could not be further from the truth. All polls and all behavior show that younger people, both men and women, but overwhelmingly the women’s side, favor change. And in the polls—it was very, very exciting—on this electorate for 2012, 19 percent of voters were 18–29 and only 16 percent were over 65. And of that, the gaps for the gay marriage thing, two thirds of 18–29 year olds, led by females, even more women than men, but still a majority of both. But more young women voted for the gay position, the equal position. Of the 16 percent over 65, two-thirds voted against it. And that’s the same with the reproductive rights measures: we carry the women and we carry the young. And Obama and his team recognize that, so they absolutely did something that we have been urging and urging and urging our side to do—to expand the electorate. All this, “Oh, the young people don’t care and they’re not going to vote, and even if you register them, they won’t vote,” this defeatist attitude—they just said goodbye and they went and registered. The feminists have been doing that for a long time, but we didn’t have the money and resources to do it as big. And the Feminist Majority is concentrated on campus organizing, because we see that that is the difference, not only campus organizing—we call it Get Out Her Vote—but also encouraging young people to take leadership. You don’t have to wait for tomorrow, you can do it today. All this makes a difference.
MS
: You obviously have been working on this so many years. It’s amazing to be reminded, as you did earlier, that there was a time, in our not so distant past, that women didn’t even have the right to vote. Where are we in the status of women, here in the United States and around the world? Where do you see us in terms of this moment in time for women?
ES
: Well, far better off than we were, but a long way still to go. It’s very easy to get discouraged. It’s very easy for people to pull out bad statistics,
but overall it’s in our direction and it’s coming. But you can’t take it for granted. You’ve got to work very hard to make the change, but the women’s movement now is global. It is worldwide in every aspect. We work with people—we work with the United Nations, we work with women’s organizations in many countries, and they exist and they’re strong. You name the country. We have a project that helps Afghan women, we’re now spreading it to Pakistan, and there are vibrant women’s movements in both countries. You name the country and there’s a vibrant women’s movement and they’re gaining in strength. And certainly here we are so much bigger and so much more diversified than we ever have been. It’s very exciting. And all those people who said it was bigger in the sixties and seventies—I had the privilege of being there in those years—it is so much bigger now, I can’t describe the difference, it’s so big. There are many, many more organizations. Just women’s studies . . . it started in 1972 on college campuses. I think the actual first program might have been late 1971. Now we’re on campuses
all over the world
—I’m not talking just the United States. Everybody disputes how many there are, but we’re on about 900 college campuses. And I think that’s even understated. At
Ms. Magazine
, we do a whole women’s studies edition and call and get everybody there . . . but it’s thousands upon thousands upon thousands of students, males and females, more females than males, learning about the status of women and equality and gender roles and history and language and so many things. And they want to make a lifetime of it in no matter what they do—if they go into public health or if they go into law, or if they go into politics, or if they go into literature, or if they go into nursing, any profession—they bring with them the passion and the energy to make sure there will be equality and justice. And that, to me, is just so exciting I can’t even tell you. And I see them all the time. We work with campuses—the energy for this is just boundless and we’ll see far more than we ever have.
MS
: I feel like there’s also been a reframing lately where there are no “women’s issues”; every issue is a woman’s issue, and men are also joining this idea that harnessing the power of women and girls, globally, benefits all of humanity.
ES
: Well, more and more men are calling themselves feminists, openly calling themselves feminists. The president of the United States does. But more and more . . . in fact we did a poll, with Celinda Lake, of voters in the 2012 race, and it’s just staggering how many call themselves feminists; it’s a majority of women voters. A solid majority of women voters. And very high among Democratic women voters but also a majority of Independents, and I think it was 38–40 percent of Republicans. And those are the women; of the men I think it was about 35–40 percent in that realm that identified with the word. And they knew what it meant. When I say they knew what it meant, you can cross tab it with their attitudes on the issues, and the person who self-identified with feminist, those are the issues they support. So it’s the strength of that idea, and more and more men are there, as well as women. And the numbers keep going up. That’s why we call ourselves the Feminist Majority. But it’s definitely increasing, increasing, increasing. We use the word feminist more because we do think that men themselves must change, it’s not just the women.
MS
: I have two daughters, and I do everything I can to plant positive, empowering messages in them, but there is just no denying this kind of virus in our culture that preys on girls to not see themselves as leaders or to fixate on their body, or all of these disempowering messages. What do you think we can do as a culture, as a society, to foster girls’ seeing themselves as leaders and having more expansive goals?
ES
: Well, that’s why I think having leadership development programs for girls is very imperative. We started a high-school and middle-school program—called Girls Learn International—which is advocating girls’ equality and empowerment, so I think all those things are very necessary. But what will happen and what is happening, and very rapidly happening, when you see more and more women in leadership, it helps to build and put more and more women in leadership. When I was a kid you couldn’t
imagine
a woman senator. Now it is commonplace. We’re still only 20 percent. That’s not good, but still, there are more, so you are more likely to see it. Bring your kids to all the rallies and marches and you see strong women leaders. And there are a lot of them. You see more women in economic leadership positions, you see more women in political leadership and presidents of universities. Our numbers are going up; they aren’t what they should be, but they’re going up. So wherever it is, you’re seeing more.
Right now the most powerful political leader in Europe is a woman, albeit a conservative one, which is unusual, but women who are on the liberal side have a greater chance to become leaders, because there are simply more of them. But anyway, so all those people in Germany, they have a different attitude that a woman leader is possible. But it’s not just there, it’s everywhere. It’s the president of South Korea, the prime minister of Bangladesh—I could go on. So many more leaders. So there are a lot more role models out there for women. I didn’t mention any of them as role models for myself, I’m just saying that there’s more visibility of women in leadership positions, certainly in the United States. We will have a president soon, a woman president, and then for all those people it breaks
that
barrier. That will happen. I think sooner, rather than later. One of those things that I like is that we’re moving in on all these parameters of political power. We need to. First, frankly, I think we desperately need to crack the Congress. It’s just unbelievable! [
laughs]
My only surprise, by the way, in all this, is that it’s taking longer than I thought, because the rules have been
very tough and this gerrymandering is totally out of control to the point that they’re losing their own credibility, but, boy, they’re hanging on.
MS
: We’ve been talking about the need for women to speak out for what they believe in. How did you develop your inner leader and find your own personal courage?
ES
: I was lucky; I bumped into the women’s movement very early. I’ve always been a cause-oriented person. I was involved in civil rights in the South when I went to college. I went to Duke. And the big issue there was segregation. And most leaders my age were involved in the civil rights movement. And then when NOW was formed and I happened to be in Pittsburgh and as a trained political scientist—I’ve always loved issues—I got involved. And then the need was so great—what we are fighting for is the
obvious
—that half the human race be treated fairly and justly and equally. And I was in that half, so I could help. I was educated. And I just got lost in it. There was so much to do—we were suing police departments and Little League and help-wanted ads that were segregated on the basis of sex; we won a lot of this. And then I became, at a very young age, an officer of NOW. And the work is so challenging and so important, I think. It helps half the human race, but it helps everybody. And it was something I had firsthand knowledge and experience of and yet I also had a background that could help, and I found out that I could do it. I didn’t know I could speak and motivate people to do things. You just did it because you needed to . . . Anybody who thinks the women’s movement is over doesn’t understand what’s happening.
What motivates you to keep going is you see the changes. You know what you’ve done and you see victory after victory. You see defeat, too, and the defeats are very discouraging, but on the other hand, a defeat can
lead to the next victory, because you learned how—okay, we didn’t do that, we’ve got to do this. We keep monitoring and adjusting.