Authors: Madoc Roberts
‘Have you got any instructions what you’re to do in an invasion?’
‘The main attack is coming from Gravesend South. They are going to come in after the twenty-first of this month. As far as C
ELERY
knows, the invasion may take place in England. His own personal opinion is that he doesn’t think they will attempt an invasion yet.
‘I have had no instructions about what to do in the event of an invasion, none at all. I will get them on the radio. C
ELERY
says we’ve got to go back in a month. I’ve had quite enough this time without going back in a week or a month. C
ELERY
said “I have it all arranged, that you get a telegram and we get the women out. That will satisfy you won’t it.” So what he’s got I can’t tell you. By the way he talks he’s been sleeping with Hitler and he’s been talking in his sleep.’
Owens claimed to have talked to the MI5 representative in Lisbon and that he had laid a sort of trap for C
ELERY
.
‘During the conversation I said “I’ll soon find out. If C
ELERY
isn’t
double-crossing
us he will tell the Major when he gets back that I’m one hundred percent for Germany and trying to buy him. If not, if he doesn’t say a word about it, I know definitely that he’s working for Germany and that’s quite true.”’
‘In fact, if C
ELERY
is working for us, he will faithfully report to us everything that S
NOW
said to him. If therefore, he conceals anything S
NOW
had said to him and in particular the fact that S
NOW
is working for the Germans and one hundred percent for the Doctor, then he himself C
ELERY
must be working one hundred percent for the Germans. That is it?’
‘Yes,’ agreed Owens.
‘What do the Germans think is your personal position now?’
‘Quite free now, because I’m working for you.’
‘What did they think was your personal position for the two and a half months between the time you were discovered and the time you went to Lisbon?’
‘I told him that I couldn’t do anything nor go anywhere, because I was watched. That’s why I had no information to give them and that C
ELERY
had got it all.’
‘Do they think that C
ELERY
had got it all, or that he was watched during that period?’
‘They don’t think he was watched, I don’t think. That was the impression he gave me.’
‘They knew that C
ELERY
was living with you?’
‘Definitely.’
‘But if you were being watched, C
ELERY
must have been watched, if he was living with you.’
‘I didn’t have that impression at all. Not a bit. He was in Bristol and had all the dope. And I told the Doctor he had all this dope at Bristol and that I couldn’t tell him anything about it. That I was unable to leave the place.’
‘The doctor knows that C
ELERY
was working for us?’
‘Yes, and that he’s changed since he arrived in Lisbon. Whether that
impression
is true or not I don’t know. I think there’s another answer to the question. About the situation regarding the telegram; how can you account for that? That was sent before C
ELERY
arrived.’
‘It doesn’t follow that that telegram referred to C
ELERY
.’
‘Of course it did. Who else could be on that boat and a major in the RAF? And that cable was sent before he arrived?’
This was Owens’ strongest charge against Dicketts but it only made MI5’s task more difficult. If Owens was telling the truth and was genuinely
working
for the British then it offered the possibility of carrying on as they did before. If the Germans trusted Owens then the worst that could happen was a kind of stalemate where both sides would not know whether to trust the information they received, but MI5’s role was counter-espionage and as such this was a position which might have been acceptable. For Owens it would mean that he would still receive the money which allowed him to live in the manner to which he had become accustomed. However if Owens was working for Germany and had been all along then he would naturally try to destroy C
ELERY
if he was really working for the British cause. In order to try to unravel what had really gone on in Lisbon and discover the true status of the double-cross system, Robertson set about finding out what Owens thought was the position of the other agents in his circle such as Gwilym Williams and the many fictitious agents that Owens had invented. Robertson knew that if Owens was operating under German control then he should have a logical and pre-rehearsed story.
‘Well now,’ continued Robertson, ‘let’s deal with the people who are working for you and what their present position is.’
‘All I’ve got, according to what they know over there, is two men and a woman, outside of Williams. These are two men who worked on sabotage and nothing else.’
‘Do you think they know we know about them?’
‘No, no, definitely not.’
‘Why do you think that?’
‘Because I told the Doctor they were working on an entirely different
section
, only sabotage, no information. They only do sabotage unless anything important turns up.’
‘But Williams’ name appears in your wireless traffic which we know about.’
‘But they’re not suspicious of Williams. I don’t know why.’
‘But if we know all about you, we must know about Williams.’
‘They’ll probably go through it, when he gets back but at the time he was not suspicious about Williams. In any case, the word Williams in Wales is very common.’
‘Quite, but then you say in your wireless traffic “Williams can go” it can be the only Williams they know. You know, they must have known about Williams.’
‘Well, he wasn’t suspicious about him. Not the slightest.’
‘But does the Doctor think that you persuaded us that you are working one hundred percent for us?’
‘Well, I told the Doctor, I said, “The situation’s this: they walked in on me and told me. I had to work for them one hundred percent or… And I said I wanted to work for them, because I had to get in touch with you again. And that’s why I am here now, because I wanted to talk to you.”’
‘Therefore we should allow you and Williams and the rest complete freedom.’
‘Definitely, because you trust me.’
‘As, of course, you are still working one hundred percent for the Doctor.’
‘Quite, quite.’
‘We are not, therefore watching Williams.’
‘You are not watching anybody, connected with me, because I’m working one hundred percent for you.’
‘And they are all therefore quite free to carry on activity about which we know nothing, simultaneously with activities which we know about?’
‘That’s what the secret transmitter’s for. It’s to transmit information gathered during the time that you think we are working one hundred percent for you. And one of my men from South Wales will go over and get it.’
‘But we will know about it?’
‘How?’ asked Owens. ‘You’ll not be in touch with my men in South Wales. Anyhow, I can get in touch with one of them. They’ll then hire a boat, go to the Channel Islands, following the instructions, come back and nobody’s any the wiser, because they have been having a holiday.’
Owens had not got on well with Sam McCarthy since the failed North Sea trawler mission and his threats to kill Owens and his family. Before his flight to Lisbon Owens had been warned not to run B
ISCUIT
down because it could backfire on him. As far as he was concerned Owens had of course recruited him in the first place and trusted him enough to use his house as the location for the aborted infra-red document drop. However now that he was back from the mission and he had been exposed as working for MI5 he seemed to believe that these restrictions no longer applied.
‘Well now, B
ISCUIT
,’ announced Robertson.
‘Wash B
ISCUIT
out altogether, because his name is mud with the Doctor. He thinks he is a complete madman.’
‘But so far as we are concerned, B
ISCUIT
is an essential part of your
organisation
. The organisation which we know about. Therefore B
ISCUIT
must go on doing all the things he should be doing.’
‘Quite, quite. But as regards the Doctor, he is a wash-out.’
‘So B
ISCUIT
’s position in your organisation only differs from the other people because the Doctor doesn’t like B
ISCUIT
. If the Doctor liked him it would have been alright?’
‘Yes.’
The interrogation ended with Owens giving physical descriptions of everyone he had encountered in Lisbon – including the Doctor whom he described as being aged about forty-five or forty-six, and around six foot tall, fairly
well-built
with broad shoulders, a finely-built man of military bearing. His eyes were blue and he had hair that was lighter than average and was parted on the left. He had a round, full face with a strong chin although Owens added ‘not battleship.’ He was clean-shaven with a fresh complexion and a slight cleft in his chin. One characteristic Owens noted was that ‘he leans back in his chair in an expansive way.’ He spoke English well with an American accent, wore horn-rimmed glasses, a belt and a wrist watch. One difference that Owens noticed from his previous meetings with the Doctor was that he no longer seemed to have a gold tooth.
Robertson’s conclusion about the interrogation session was that Owens had been very forthcoming but that there were times when he had been holding things back. Robertson considered that Owens’ story did not give a coherent version of what had transpired in Lisbon but that this initial
statement
of events could be used in further interrogation sessions with Owens when they would need to go through his story point by point. During a
break in the interrogation Marriott had an unrecorded conversation with Owens and had two points to add to Robertson’s assessment. First, he felt that Owens was extremely jealous of the way that Dicketts had been treated during his time in Germany, which Marriott thought coloured everything that Owens said. Secondly, Marriott got the impression that Owens now believed that Britain would win the war and this would obviously have an effect as to which side he wanted to be seen to be supporting. Marriott thought that these factors combined into a psychological soft spot in Owens, character which could be exploited in future interrogation sessions.
Owens had claimed that the reason that Rantzau had become suspicious about him was because it had been too easy for him to gain passage on an aeroplane. Liddell thought that Owens had perfectly good commercial
reasons
for travelling. Liddell had also received a message from Owens saying that he wanted his wife and child to join him in Lisbon. Liddell recorded in his diary that Owens may have lost his nerve and that the S
NOW
case ‘was bound to come to an end sooner or later.’
The plan was to question Owens again in three days’ time but on the same day this was due to happen MI5 received a message that del Pozo the Spanish Falangist had escaped from his penal settlement and was now hiding in the German embassy where he was probably telling all.
* * *
Robertson’s mood was very different at the second interrogation session when he was not going to let Owens avoid his questions by rambling from one topic to the next and in order to achieve this, his approach was much more aggressive. Robertson wanted to discuss the various meetings that Owens had with the Doctor separately and in minute detail because he found some of Owens’ story very hard to believe. He assumed that the German Secret Service would be as rigorous as MI5 in their approach and what he had heard about the Doctor from Owens so far displayed nothing of the kind. Initially the interrogation took much the form of the first session but soon things became much more difficult for Owens when Robertson read back Owens’ statement concerning the moment when the Doctor confronted him with the fact that he was working for British Intelligence.
‘Well’ said Owens, ‘we sat down and the Doctor said to me, “I’ve got something very interesting to tell you and I want a truthful reply.” I said “Okay, shoot.” He
said “I’ve got information that you are in contact with the British Intelligence.” I said: “That’s perfectly true. I’ve been trying for over two and a half months to get over to see you about it.”
‘Didn’t it come as rather a shock to you? Did you hesitate when the Doctor sprang that remark on you?’
‘Not at all,’ replied Owens.
‘… supposing you’d said to him that you were not in touch with the
Intelligence
?’
‘I didn’t know what he knew.’
‘But you could have bluffed that out, couldn’t you?’
‘I doubt it. He never makes statements unless they’re correct. With me anyhow.’
‘But it might have been your old association with us.’
‘Well, I didn’t know, I didn’t have time to think.’
‘That would have been the easiest explanation.’
‘I might have been able to bluff it out that way, but I didn’t know what he knew, or what he knows even now. I took the easiest way out and to my mind that was the easiest way out. In any case he knew I came over priority.’ Here Owens was referring to the fact that he was given priority passage on his flight to Lisbon.
Owens then tried to introduce C
ELERY
into his testimony but Robertson was having none of it, the tension mounting between the two men.
‘C
ELERY
doesn’t come into this,’ insisted Robertson. ‘I want to have from you an absolute truthful account of the whole thing.’
‘I didn’t understand you Major. Do you think I’m trying to double-cross you?’
‘It wouldn’t surprise me.’
‘Why? What for? Why would I want to double-cross you?’
Having upped the tension Robertson now wanted to use the situation to let Owens know that he was determined to get to the truth. ‘Never mind. I want an absolutely correct statement.